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Random groups but force two groups to occure together

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5 years 5 months ago - 5 years 5 months ago #196943 by tpartner

Group B must be after group A
Group A position must be randomized (at position 1, 2, 3 etc ...)

I understand - I would put the contents of group B in group A and initially hide the group B stuff.

Cheers,
Tony Partner

Solutions, code and workarounds presented in these forums are given without any warranty, implied or otherwise.
Last edit: 5 years 5 months ago by tpartner.
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5 years 5 months ago #196944 by DenisChenu

tpartner wrote:

Group B must be after group A
Group A position must be randomized (at position 1, 2, 3 etc ...)

I understand - I would put the contents of group B in group A and initially hide the group B stuff.

Yes , it's the solution of 1st line, not for 2nd :)

1.Group B must be after group A ! Javascript solution to "cut" a group visually
2. Group A position must be randomized (at position 1, 2, 3 etc ...) : ?

For 2 : maybe create
- add befor all ShowGroupA equation with {if(is_empty(self.NAOK),rand(1,4),self.NAOK)} -(unsure it work like that, didn' remnd)
- AB1 at position 1 with condition ShowGroupA ==1
- AB2 at position 2 with condition ShowGroupA ==2
- AB3 at position 3 with condition ShowGroupA ==3
- AB4 at position 4 with condition ShowGroupA ==4

etc ...

Finally :! make a plugin (in 4.X) can be more easy ...

Assistance on LimeSurvey forum and LimeSurvey core development are on my free time.
I'm not a LimeSurvey GmbH member. - Professional support - Plugins, theme and development .
I don't answer to private message.
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5 years 5 months ago #196946 by rakittam
That is how I made it at the end. Looking forward to using V4.0 soon to hopefully to this fast and easy
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5 years 5 months ago #196950 by tpartner
I don't see the need for a plugin. I thought all groups are randomized - "My question groups need to occur randomly, so I assigned them to "randomization groups", and this works fine.".

Cheers,
Tony Partner

Solutions, code and workarounds presented in these forums are given without any warranty, implied or otherwise.
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5 years 5 months ago #196952 by rakittam
They all should be randomized up to B. Question group B should always follow question group A. The bundle AB however should be randomly occur. As your comment above - hiding B in A - is one option, but not ideal. It would be much better for us to have a separate page for B hence I created a separate question group for B and tried to let it follow A. Being able to do exactly this is what I mean by a nice plugin for V4.0.
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5 years 5 months ago - 5 years 5 months ago #196959 by holch

DenisChenu wrote:

holch wrote: If we would have a real "page" concept besides the "group" concept, this would be easy peasy. But we don't. And from the opinion in some of my feature requests we probably will never get a real "page" concept.

You can not say be easy ...

It can be done in plugin on LimeSurvey 4, but still not easy.


I am not saying that implementing a page concept into Limesurvey would be easy.

I am no developer and thus I am in no position to reliably estimate the effort it would take to implement a page concept in addition to the group concept that we already have. Due to the complexity of Limesurvey, I would guess that it would have many touch points in different functionalities in Limesurvey and is probably quite some work.

What I am saying is, that IF WE WOULD HAVE a page concept, besides the group concept, it would be easy to do what OP wants to do. Not more, not less. Or call it something like "visual question groups" (pages) and "logical question groups" (current question groups). In some projects these might be actually the same, but sometimes, like here, you need to group questions logically, but you want to separate them visually (different pages).

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  • Always provide a LSS file (not LSQ or LSG).
Note: I answer at this forum in my spare time, I'm not a LimeSurvey GmbH employee.
Last edit: 5 years 5 months ago by holch.
The following user(s) said Thank You: rakittam
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5 years 5 months ago #196962 by Joffm
Hi,
as it is frequently recommended "In a good questionnaire there is one question per page", you obviously may merge the two groups.
I really don't know why the developers of LimeSurvey decided to set "group by group" as the default setting.

And as long as there is no flexible "group concept", like a question type "group" that may contain several other "questions", as you see here in a commercial survey tool, it is difficult.

You see there are normal questions like "NumSlider", "SimpleMulti", but then there is a group that contains two questions, which you may display horizontally or vertically.
But you also see, that this commercial tool shows question by question by default, what is the natural way to answer a questionnaire.

I personally don't like to scroll down, I don't like to scroll up again, because I missed one answer option in an array at the top of the page, then down again.
And of course, you may get a bias, if people see which question will follow and - if there are filters - see the results of their choices. I mean, if I see that I later have to answer questions to each object I selected in a multiple question, the number of answers will decrease.

Just to consider.

Joffm

Volunteers are not paid.
Not because they are worthless, but because they are priceless
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5 years 5 months ago #196963 by DenisChenu

holch wrote: What I am saying is, that IF WE WOULD HAVE a page concept, besides the group concept, it would be easy to do what OP wants to do. Not more, not less.

But here : it's not simple like you say/write.

OP want something really specific :)

Position of a group at a randome position followed by another group.

Have a group + page concept give some facility, but even with page + group + randomization group : we don't have an easy solution ....

Assistance on LimeSurvey forum and LimeSurvey core development are on my free time.
I'm not a LimeSurvey GmbH member. - Professional support - Plugins, theme and development .
I don't answer to private message.
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5 years 5 months ago #196969 by rakittam
Hey Joffm,

Thank you for your contribution. But I have my reasons for the study setup.

Actually, the way you order your questions depends on the research you do. In my case, the mentioned bias is desired. I investigate cognitive biases in energy-related consumer behaviour, e.g. the study design hides effects in follow-up tasks for control and treatment groups.
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5 years 5 months ago - 5 years 5 months ago #196970 by holch

OP want something really specific :)

Position of a group at a randome position followed by another group.

Have a group + page concept give some facility, but even with page + group + randomization group : we don't have an easy solution ....


I don't see a problem here. I would put A and B into the same logical group, but separate them onto two pages. When I randomize the logical groups, they are always together, because they are in ONE logical group. Problem solved. Or am I missing something?

From what I understand, having a page concept AND a group concept in parallel would be perfect for these kind of cases.

Help us to help you!
  • Provide your LS version and where it is installed (own server, uni/employer, SaaS hosting, etc.).
  • Always provide a LSS file (not LSQ or LSG).
Note: I answer at this forum in my spare time, I'm not a LimeSurvey GmbH employee.
Last edit: 5 years 5 months ago by holch.
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5 years 5 months ago #196973 by rakittam

I don't see a problem here. I would put A and B into the same logical group, but separate them onto two pages. When I randomize the logical groups, they are always together, because they are in ONE logical group. Problem solved. Or am I missing something?


Can you specify what you mean by a "logical group"?
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5 years 5 months ago #196974 by holch
Sorry rakittam, I am discussing with Denis a theoretical concept that I had suggested to be implemented into LS a while ago. IT IS NOT IMPLEMENTED, so it is no solution for you. This is a "theoretical no problem" if we would have the page concept in addition to the question group concept implemented, not a "real life" "no problem".

Currently we have "question groups" as a concept. They can either be used as a visual group (== page) or as a logical group (questions that belong together logically, but not necessarily visual - on the same page).

My proposal was something like this:


Help us to help you!
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  • Always provide a LSS file (not LSQ or LSG).
Note: I answer at this forum in my spare time, I'm not a LimeSurvey GmbH employee.
The following user(s) said Thank You: rakittam
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5 years 5 months ago #196975 by rakittam
Thank you for this addition.

Actually, you have my vote; this would be a useful extension of the existing 'question group' concept.
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5 years 5 months ago #196976 by holch
Or probably better something like this:



But as said, this was a Feature request that I created quite some time ago (additional "Page concept"), which was not implemented (yet). And probably never will.

In LS 4, the question groups have been partially renamed to "pages", but we still have to decide whether we want to use the current concept for grouping questions on pages or if we want to use it for logical grouping of questions.

The approach highlighted by Joffm is also interesting. Generally people want to display question by question, I think. But sometimes you would like to have two questions on one page, for a specific reason (e.g. a Text display and then an evaluation question, etc.). Currently, because you might have one case where you want to do this, you'll have to wrap each question into its own group, just to be able to have 2 questions in one of the groups/pages. If you have a very long survey, this might add a lot of extra steps, just to be able two show two questions on one page in one occasion throughout the questionnaire.

E.g. my company has a standard questionnaire that has about 26 questions. The general mode is to show everything question by question, just the gender and the age are shown on one page, generally.

In some tools I only create 26 questions and than join 2 of them onto 1 page.

In Limesurvey I need to create 26 questions and 25 question groups if I want to achieve the same result. If someone creates a lot of surveys, this can have a significant impact on how long it takes to program such a questionnaire. If you only create 1-2 new questionnaires per month, not a big deal. If you are programming 2-3 questionnaires per day, this has a strong impact on your workload.

Help us to help you!
  • Provide your LS version and where it is installed (own server, uni/employer, SaaS hosting, etc.).
  • Always provide a LSS file (not LSQ or LSG).
Note: I answer at this forum in my spare time, I'm not a LimeSurvey GmbH employee.
The following user(s) said Thank You: rakittam
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5 years 5 months ago - 5 years 5 months ago #196977 by Joffm
Yes it would be,
but holch and I are talking about it for years.

But you can merge the two groups.

Simple by inserting a simple question between the two parts (you should insert the same question at the end of your other groups as well)

Then something like:
Group1 Q1 <- is_empty(QX)
Group1 Q2 <- is_empty(QX)
..
Intermediate question QX
Group2 Q1 <- !is_empty(QX)
Group1 Q2 <- !is_empty(QX)
..





And it should be possible to hide this intermediate question after clicking it by javascript.

Now it's up to you.
Either you wait until somebody will develop something,
or you review your design
or you use a different tool,
or...


Joffm

Volunteers are not paid.
Not because they are worthless, but because they are priceless
Last edit: 5 years 5 months ago by Joffm.
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