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can a survey be legally binding

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13 hours 32 minutes ago #274895 by wegszebe
Please help us help you and fill where relevant:
Your LimeSurvey version: 7.0.6
Own server or LimeSurvey hosting: own server
Survey theme/template: vanilla
==================
We would like to create a survey to vote for specific topics.

Is such a voting legally binding?

Other tools, like docusign, are accepted by DE courts as legally binding. Is this also the case with limesurvey surveys with votings?

Thanks for help
Kind Regards
Karl-Heinz

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11 hours 30 minutes ago #274899 by Joffm
Do you want to use a signature pad?

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Not because they are worthless, but because they are priceless

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10 hours 57 minutes ago #274901 by wegszebe

Do you want to use a signature pad?
 
No! This could be a solution. But none of the participants does have such a signature pad. I guess for votings this would be a very high hurdle.

And, as far as I know, tools like docusign (there are also others of that kind) don't need a signature pad at all to be accepted as legally binding.

As far as I know docusign, it works with documents. And a user opening a document or answering on a document provided for acceptance, signs internally with his private key (I don't know the exact way).

So, from my personal point of view, some type of RSA mechanism would help to make a survey legally binding.

But I am no developer and don't have a clou of an idea how complex such an implementation would be. I assume, it would have a big impact on participants management (in the background).
But - anyhow - legally accepted surveys would be an advantage. 

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10 hours 25 minutes ago #274902 by Joffm
"Signatgure pad" is a question theme you can install into the survey.
[url] github.com/adamzammit/LimeSurvey-Signature-Question [/url]
But not sure if it is compatible with LS 7.x.

 
Joffm
 

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10 hours 13 minutes ago #274903 by wegszebe
sorry, did not know. I assumed you ment a device!

After a quick view I am nearly sure, this will not make a survey accepted as legally binding.

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8 hours 26 minutes ago #274904 by Joffm
Well, probably.
But what do you want to use LimeSurvey for that you consider this? 
(Vorstandswahl vom Kaninchenzüchterverein? - Weil, das hatten wir schon einmal hier.  )
In my opinion there is no real necessity for something like that in a tool mainly used for Market-, Opinion- and Social Research.
This means that the developers should not devote effort to a feature that is hardly ever used.
There are still many more important areas in LimeSurvey that should be addressed as a priority.

Joffm

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7 hours 43 minutes ago #274905 by wegszebe

But what do you want to use LimeSurvey for that you consider this? 

Joffm
 
Now, there are very many usecases for this. You can start with public elections. O.K. - I agree, they wouldn't use limesurvey for this!

All typ of elections and votings where you currently have to join up, since this is the only way to make a voting fix with no option to complain.

My real usecase:

If you problay own a flat or some share of an immobile object, you probably know, that all decisions taken by the community of shareholders (owners) has to be done in a physical meeting. Normally, this meeting takes place only once per year.

But sometimes there are topics coming up during that 12 month period which need an urgent action. Currently, there are only two ways to get a bind decision on such an urgent case:
1) You collect the votings via documents you send around an collect again! UUUH - wir are in digital age - are we?
2) You organize a so called "Außerordentliche Eigentümerversammlung". This needs a lot of effort in preparation, sending out paper invitations, finding a date where most of the owners have the chance to join, ...... And, such events cost additional money!!

If there would be a possibility for a legaly accepted voting via some tool, that would bring much more flexibility (e.g. 1 voting per quarter if urgent cases exist), would make the voting independent of some date (you can allow the voting within a timeframe) and would reduce costs.

But, for this the votig must be legally accepted so no member of the community can complain about the voting later at court.

If you are familiar with the "WEG" (Wohnungseigentumsgesetz) in the past there was only a physical meeting allowed. Now, where the law had been reviewed some time ago, also "hybrid meetings" are allowed.
The (new) tools used by building management (Hausverwaltungen) meanwhile have options for online meetings according to the definition in the law. I am not aware of that, if they include also votings during this online meetings. I havn't seen such an online meeting for a owners meeting so far. What I have heared about is, that all online participants are allowed to listen to the physical meeting, but don't have permission to participate in whate manner ever, at least not voting for topics.

As far as I am aware, that was the same with docusign (or similar tools). For a long time it was only possible to sign/accept documents with your personal signature. So business documents were sent around. Some years ago the digital signiture came up (law: eIDAS). Now a lot of business organizations use digital signature on pdf documents for this.
But still, at least where customers (B2C) come in, they rarely do have a valid digital signature (Qualifizierte Signatur nach eIDAS).
During my work time (I am meanwhile retired) I followed the way of such tools like docusign and they managed to prove the acceptance of a document is secure and by that this was accepted by judges and courts.
Now some organizations use this to let customers accept documents (contracts, ....).

This was for sure a long way to come to that point. But it helps and is, as far as I know, meanwhile used by very many organizations.

If such legally acceptet voting tool would exist, it for sure would help with WEGs, and for sure with many other usecases (even those Kaninchenzüchterverein).

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7 hours 10 minutes ago #274910 by jelo

If such legally acceptet voting tool would exist, it for sure would help with WEGs, and for sure with many other usecases (even those Kaninchenzüchterverein).
 
Check this German article for the technical requirements.
www.liebert-roeth.de/de/rechtsgebiete/wo...gentuemerversammlung

I don't see a separate survey toll like LimeSurvey as a solution. You want a audio/video conference tool with user account management and an open and hidden voting tool. You have to mimic a physical meeting as near as possible

The meaning of the word "stable" for users
www.limesurvey.org/forum/development/117...ord-stable-for-users

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6 hours 42 minutes ago - 6 hours 40 minutes ago #274913 by wegszebe
sorry, no!
As you already have the "Umlaufverfahren", which ich currently paperbased, you could have in the same way a voting tool.

You probably have had a deeper look inthe the link you posted. If I am not wrong, in short words, hybrid meeting must have the same options as physical meetings. Currently I havn't seen any tool of the (new) toolset of "Hausverwaltungen" what allows this. Therefore, as I said, I havn't seen any real "hybride EV".

But I am not looking at an EV. I am more or less looking for a substitute of an "Umlaufverfahren". As this is currently paperbased - wir are in digital age - it could become tool based! Just a voting tool!

And I know, this will not happen tomorrow. But first the tool must exist, then the acceptance of law or courts (Richterrecht) must/can come.
Last edit: 6 hours 40 minutes ago by wegszebe.

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6 hours 10 minutes ago #274914 by jelo

But I am not looking at an EV. I am more or less looking for a substitute of an "Umlaufverfahren".
 
That is a clear statement. That was not clear to me from you posts so far.

You can replicate the Umlaufverfahren with LimeSurvey. The weak link isn't LimeSurvey but to ensure everybody got the individual link to the survey.  You create a closed survey and add tokens for every person which is allowed to vote.
You need to send every person an individual link (oder generic link + access token). That can be E-Mail any other transport medium which ensures that the right person gets the survey link.
A tool which allows people to haven login account will still be easier to provide everything in one place. But the voting itself can be created in LimeSurvey.
 

The meaning of the word "stable" for users
www.limesurvey.org/forum/development/117...ord-stable-for-users

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